Monday, July 02, 2007


From my previous post.

I haven't fallen into the "I'm ok, you're ok, everything is relative" pit (because honestly I don't think such a thing really can work...if we all weren't living/doing what we thought was right then why would we be doing it?)

I just feel that making laws against abortion because God makes it clear all life is sacred is like putting a bandage on a paper cut after the arm has already fallen off and the person is bleeding to death. There is a much bigger problem that needs to be addressed, and until it is the little things can't really be fixed anyway.

Yes, there will be those who won't have an abortion just because it's illegal. They're also more likely to be the ones willing to sit and talk with a counselor about the far reaching effects of abortion and to seek out other options. We should put our energy into support, education and relationships with people, not into legislation that won't stop the real problem anyway.


Nicole said...

That is such a good point! People wouldn't stop sinning if it were made illegal That is what is in our hearts. I'm not saying those that push for abortion to be illegal are wrong, I think that is a great cause. However, we should be more concerned with the state of people's hearts and allowing God to use us to change their hearts.

Lindy said...

I agree with a lot of your points. I think that there is a bigger problem at work- and completly agree with what you said about homosexual marraige. Abortion is another animal IMO- let me clarify.

There is no conclusive evidence about when a baby is actually alive when in the womb. Science has given us little pointers toward either side- but there is not way to know. I feel like becuase there is the potential that abortions could be murder- the government should be able to step in and say "We will be better safe than sorry". I havn't mentioned any Biblical prinicpals at all- but the guarding of life isn't something that Christians have a patent on.

I also disagree with your belief that people who would be disuaded from having an abortion would be open to counseling and other options. Some would- but an abortion is fast, clean, easy to keep a secret and has no shame involved. It's the mnost convienent option. I don't think that I'm being to demanding to expect the government to change that. Make them harder to get,ect.

We shouldn't need to look to the Bible to find reasons why evil things are evil. We can find them all around. If we can't find the reasons maybe we should re-evaluate how important the fight is. I don't see that conflict in abortion.

Steph said...

Abortion is far from convenient, and a LOT of shame is involved.

My problem with legislating against abortion is that removes the option from everyone - even when there is a risk to the life of the mother and the baby if the pregnancy continues. What then? Do we require women to potentially sacrifice their lives, meaning they could die and not be there to care for this new child, or any previous children?

Or what of instances when it's clear the baby wouldn't survive outside of the woumb. Personally, I would never terminate a pregnancy due to any sort of developmental problem, but there are those who can't stand the thought of carrying a child and birthing it to it's death.

And there are women who will abort no matter what. They have their reasons. Should we condemn them to "coat hanger" trials where their life and fertility are at risk?

I am not advocating abortion, but I can understand where the desire comes from. I think it is wrong, it is taking life, and that the pro-choice movement fails to account for the rights and choices of that life. However, one death is always better than two.

Dena said...

I see merit on both sides. Steph, you have some good and valid points, Lindy, I think you do too.

Here's my thought: Laws are made to protect those who need protection: the young, weak, poor, defenseless, etc. The strong, rich, and powerful can protect themselves. There is no more defenseless person than one still inside the womb. He is completely at the mercy of those arounnd him. I think abortion is killing someone without giving them an oppourtunity to have a say in the matter. The abortion may be because of convenience or for many other reasons. I think this is wrong. It is not a matter of national security or of war, but we are killing our own people on the priciple that they have less right to live than we adults do. I see this on the same level as many murders and genocides that we are outraged by in Africa. There they are killing within their own nation because one group of people has decided the other group has less right to live. Tribes, rebels, etc. go through a town raping, killing, or removing limbs from their victims. We do the very same to our children. We tear them limb from limb and thrown them away because their life is not as valuable as ours. I agree with Lindy. We do not have to look to the Bible to think that is wrong. Most people are not standing on the Bible claiming the slaughters in Darfur are wrong, they just know it is. I think the same can be applied to abortions. You don't have to be a Christian to think throwing away our very own children is less than ideal.

Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree.

Lindy said...

Steph- I am in favor of allowing abortions in a safe environment in the case of rape, incest, and threat of life to the mother and/or child. I didn't even think that I needed to say that. The idea that leglislation has to be all or nothing is a major flaw in thinking.

There was a editorial that I read in Newsweek the week the partial birth abortion ban was unheld in the Supreme Court. It was titled "I had the now-illeagal abortion". This woman went on the describe her situation. She was pregnant with her husband and the baby had a condition that made his internal organs grow on the outside of his body. For some reason carrying this pregnancy to term (which would have resulted on a still birth) would have severly limited her chances of being able to have more children. She had an abortion, and went on to have two other healthy children.

After telling this story she went on to say that all abortions should be legal because of cases like hers. I saw a major flaw in logic there. We souldn't legislate for the exceptions, we sould legislate for the rule and make room for the exceptions.

We can wave the flag of "but what about the exception" all we want, but the reality of the situation is that the majority of abortions happens because the pregnancy is unplanned where there are no health concerns. Over half are to girls under the age of 18.

To your first responce that abortions are ever convienent- they are more convienent than telling your Mom, carrying the baby to term and then "giving it up". The whole situation is very inconvienent- but I doubt that you can come up with a situation that is more convienent than an abortion. It's quick and then it's over.

You and I both know that there are major emotional trauma that can come after, but the vast majority of girls have no idea that it's even an option. The consequences of an abortion are never discussed- not in the public schools, or in the Church.

Steph said...

I agree the consequences need to be discussed more. That's part of my main point - instead of legislation, we need education, support, and encouragement for women in that situation.

As for abortions being parented in some situations, that's usually not included in laws. In Canada, abortion is allowable if deemed medically necessary, but medically necissary is open to interpretation. For some it means if the life of the mother is in danger only. For others it's if the mother just plain doesn't want to continue the pregnancy.

I guess for me it's an argument that only happens because of the current state of the world. Laws will not stop people from having unplanned pregnancies, from being raped, from having a pregnancy when it puts their life in danger etc. There is no way to stop those things, other than one at a time encounters and education, and that's where our energy should be going.

Lindy said...

I agree that education is ideal- but if the legislation dosn't back up the education that is being given it will never be that effective. You didn't address my points about how the vast majority of abortions are decisions based on convience. Do you really think that we sould throw up our hands and say "We lets just focus on education" when a true injustice is being done for no good reason?

Talking about the exceptions to this is silly, and you should know better. Plenty of laws have room for exceptions. When a murder occurs a person can claim insanity, or even justifiable homocide. The government of Canada didn't say "Well, there are some situations where a killing should not be punished- so lets make all of then OK". No- they created legislation to deal with the exceptions. There is no reason that we souldn't expect the same thing in the abortion situation.

Steph said...

Lindy, don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating abortion at all.

As for the convenience, I don't believe you. Globally I think most abortions are preformed because the baby is female. In fact in some countries doctors will not disclose the sex of the baby because they don't want the mother to abort. In a documentary I saw one woman had had 15 abortions because they were girls. I was pregnant with Hana at the time, and it wasn't long after finding out she was a girl. I can't tell you how heartbroken I was, or how much pain and regret the woman felt.

Many women I've talked to who have considered abortion (some have had the procedure, some chose not to) it was a choice of desperation - how could they raise their child and finish school, or work, or risk being kicked out of their house or beaten by their father or partner.

Yes, there are some women who have abortions out of convenience, but that an abortion is a "quick fix" is a myth that is constantly perpetuated by both sides of the issue.

Lindy said...

I know that it breaks your heart, I've never doubted that- but by defending legislation that supports it you are advocating abortion- not completly, but you still are. Because I believe abortions should be allowed in some circumstances I would put myself in the same catagory.

I don't see how the global issues impact my opinion on abortion in the US or Canada- it's a competly different discussion, so I'm not going to comment on that aspect of your post.

I'm sorry but an unplanned pregnancy impacting your college education does not count as "an act of desperation" IMO. It's a great example of how spoiled we are as westerners- but still ultimatly an issue of convienence. In the case of spousal abuse you brought up- nothing will be solved until you leave the abuser. Having a child may just be the catalyst needed to made that decision.

I just think that you are making excuses for people that don't deserve excuses being made for them. I don't think you are really thinking through the issue- and I don't really know why. You can disagree with me (come on Steph, when have we ever agreed, it never messed with our friendship), but I think that you are smarter than the arguments you are using.

Why don't we continue the discussion via e-mail. Mine is

I love you Steph- and am getting a lot out of the conversation.